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Los hablantes de lenguas indígenas de México: el caso de Oaxaca

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This information is valuable and is confirmed by many other primary sources. This Teotlalpan no territory, is a town in actual Puebla State. Sahagun's work is encyclopedic , not " anthropological " since in fact there was not even anthropology as such in those times. It was not written in Tepeapulco, it was written in Mexico City, in Tepeapulco village compiled the " Primeros Memoriales " which is a different document.

The " Historia General " is broadly descriptive and covers practically all subjects, from religion to everyday things like riddles, going through all the sciences of its time: botany, astrology, zoology, history, metallurgy, etc. In book XI he describes "plains and slopes of the earth", and of course gives the definition of "teotlalli" that clarifies the meaning of Teotlalpan. The central focus of Berdan-Anawalt is not tributary, its main concern is the conformation of the territory in provinces and their relations, for this reason they make an ample review of complementary sources.

If we are to find sources that talk of " regions " by simple logic are those cartographic works or that talk of the population and censuses. I chose the most representative ones, looking for which talks of Teotlalpan like "old region", only found books where it is applied to villages. For me is old territory, What is Teotlalpan for you? Akapochtli , no response, still? You two can keep arguing over this indefinitely, if you think that's a productive use of your time.

El usuario no acepta correcciones u opiniones que contradigan su "imagen ideal" del tema. Sus ediciones consecutivas ! Ola Marrovi. Na Galipedia non buscamos a cantidade, buscamos a calidade. Dear users. A request has opened to decide if apply a Global ban against Marrovi. Other users who have relevant information can participate. Here is the link ; You can also review the guidelines here.

For the same policies I have to notify in the projects that he participate. Levo revisados 16 artigos de Marrovi. Todo isto sen mencionar os erros de lingua. Leva moito tempo, xa, xogando co sistema. Xa foi bloqueado para sempre en: de. E temporalmente, a lo menos, en: lad. Akapochtli; Hell is an ofensive word, my nickname is Marrovi []. Offering users is an act of aggression that can lead to blocking. Ha, ha, ha. Do you guess?

Su es. Su en. Is very necessary to read here; en:Talk:Teotlalpan , thank you very much. It is intolerant Akapochtli to mock that I am blocked is Spanish because he denounces to User:Bernard that my entry of correction of non-existent Spanish terms as Lenguas nahuanas o nahuatlanas Akapochtli's terms by temporary block, which was the perfect excuse to ask for my permanent blocking and to look for other blocks and ask for my general bannig []. A person who acts with skills is not a good person for me. Marrovi : User:Akapochtli put the following comment on my talk page on Tuesday 13 March:.

Dear friend: Really, really I don't know what I would think about this situation, if we have one guy who may do whatever he wants, how has been possible that we allow him to make many things our face? Is there a limit? I let myself make a revision and I tell you that I had found.

Obviously you know that checking his changes is too hard. Again, copy-paste. We can see other one on Huiquipedia-Muse and the same words with other spelling on Incubator-Muse-nch. Third evidence, from Huiquipedia he copied Tlapalli and put on Incubator under code nch , when I saw it I tried to improve it and in addition I added some references , one kind of thing that he didn't do, so recently he copied and pasted again but now under code nhn.

If we have seven thousand pages on Huiquipedia, then he may copy all! Actually this happening, bit by bit he's doing that. We can also check his changelist and see how he doesn't choose where to put a certain text ; first he puts like nch pattern, then like nhn pattern, late like nci and finally he puts again nhn. One more thing, I don't understand what is the point if we have an open Huiquipedia where people write with clasical and central nahuatl, why are there two proyect on Incubator too?

At the end of the day, I don't know what we must do, really I don't wish to discuss with him anymore and I don't want to participate in any order action against him; despite of all I'm the only one who can see and understand what happening here, so I'm afraid I won't be quiet, if we watch something wrong we have the obligation to tell it, we must. He will never stop, certainly his contributions on Ladino-Wikipedia will be his better success, I don't have any objection there, but on Incubator his actions are costumes, he tries to hoax us, really he isn't able to speak nahuatl neither for make right wiki-pages, not at all.

This issue I put on your hands I don't want to argue anymore, really I don't. I've looked into this further, and I have some questions I need to ask you. I establish the following rules for your answers:. Please answer these questions. Thank you. Not sure if I am OK to join such discussions or not, but at least my opinion is, whether you think that's fair or not, support splitting the de facto nahwiki , here are the reasons:. Feel free to "blame" that what I'm lying above. Un fuerte abrazo Steven, Shalom. Dear StevenJ81, I did not understand why the blockade, I see it says there is a violation of copyedit.

I would like to know what violates the copyedict? I know you do not act in bad faith but I was surprised by that blockade, once again the courage, endive and jealousy of the names of the users have been done in this way that you know the reason why the users of indigenous origin they have been disappointed with Wikipedia. If you went over to the NCI story articles, you may be upset with the publication of Akapochtli's copyright.

In addition, there are a large number of items in the home and the state in which they are correcting with the natives. I am also expanding the articles that I am editing; here you can see it, I'm doing it with Tepoxteco, that you know that he is a native speaker [] , as well as other native speakers from other regions, from which moment they do not have interest in editing in wikipedia, but that they support me in the writing and structure. Many mistakes written there, words invented by Akapochtli and other non-native users, up to enough terms that are not found in the dictionaries, glossaries and documents of Classical Nahuatl.

To give an example; the word planet I could not find it in the entries of the Classical Nahuatl, there are two words that appear in the contents of glossaries for the planet; citlalpol and citlalli tlalli; thus many mistakes or invented words are those that Akapochtli's defends. Tepoxteco and Teotlalilli are very happy with the ones I like because I do a lot of what they did not do for lack of time, I liked my work to improve the design and I join the wikipedia system of editing, besides that they consider me a excellent student in Nahuas languages. A difference of the users that here demand and always hinder the work, if I advise of the natives, I also have a story with a wide bibliography of Nahuatl languages.

A big hug Steven, Shalom. No busco hacer mofa de nada porque mi trabajo es serio.

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I do not seek to make a mockery of anything because my work is serious. I show you my photographs about my works and meetings at the University of Warsaw, in Poland [] , at UNAM my mother university and in Wikipedia about the Nahuatl languages, because now you can prove that I'm not an ordinary user as you were led to believe, many years of work guarantee me, is bother for me that you get ripped off. Good afternoon, you are a witness that I have responded to the requests made to me in less than 72 hours Incubator:User talk:Marrovi , and I gave my word as a gentleman, I hope the discussion continues without blockages.


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I am not an ordinary user, I have studied the Nahuatl languages for many years. Thank you very much, regards. Up to this moment Akapochtli is the only user who does not want me to return to Huiquipedia because he himself made the decision to block me, by logic I will never return to edit there because it is the decision making in Huiquipedia. Huiquipedia is not a democratic space nor is there mutual help and everyone edits about what they want without relation to the Nahuas and that is well known by Steven, but it is not convenient for others to find out, there in Huiquipedia, if you contradict Akapochtli you are expelled by himself, if indeed it were true that there are excellent articles, I would not have to attack Huiquipedia, huvo native speakers and these were attacked and rejected by Akapochtli himself.

I was the main editor of many great articles and now it turns out that I violated the copyright for copying in Incubator the articles that I edited in Huiquipedia. Whoever believes that in huiquipedia you can read good articles, is wrong, the absence of native speakers is an obvious sign of bad articles, meztizo is not synonymous with a Nahuatl speaker, it has taken me more than 10 years of my life to learn Nahua languages.

For the reasons that I spoke a few hours ago with true indigenous friends of the continent, I retire from Incubator and I will not continue editing because my only interest here was to look for spaces for indigenous languages, I do not need a one year blockade or a blockade to always, I am a man of my word, my ancestral values Crypto-Jews do not allow me to lend myself to games and humiliations, I am a worthy man and my word is true. I apologize if I offended someone. Thank you, good bye.

I was blocked in Huiquipedia by an user who is the only one who administers there, there is no democracy in Huiquipedia and in addition there are many misguided articles, with invented words and without an academic body that rejects the errors of each article, there everyone applies its rules, l ocual denigrates the Nahuatl languages. As the articles that I passed to the incubator were edited by me, now I'm accused of copyright violation in the articles that I edited in Huiquipedia, it turns out that I can not improve or expand them because there is violation, and as I do not intend to fall games or mockery of blockages, I have taken the decision not to continue writing in the incubator, in addition to having only one user who controls everything in Huiquipedia, I will never be unblocked and will never give credit to my work because he makes others believe he is only one who knows the Nahuatl languages, in a few words he does not like to be corrected nor does he like to have competition, since it is the only way to deceive anyone that he is the only one who knows the subject and that is why he uses his power when he sees his interests in danger, but not the interests of native Nahuatl speakers.

I think I should stop editing in the incubator, because now it will be more difficult to convince the real speakers to edit in wikipedia, there is no case that I support the projects if they decided not to continue with wikipedia. Huiquipedia is not a project endorsed by them, native speakers, those who edit there are mestizos and lack knowledge about indigenous peoples, they also only have a single psdo-active administrator who controls everything and the articles lack quality, responds only to the vision of the mestizo and if they do not like you they block you.

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Due to the fact that I stop editing here, I will not lose my knowledge about Nahuatl languages, this is simply not the place and they are directly running me from the project, I am not welcome, nor am I invited to edit. Huiquipedia does not correspond to a particular language, it's a jumble of orthographies of several life and dead Nahua languages, there are many words invented by the users themselves that are not understood by native speakers and also if the administrator does not like you will be blocked by himself.

It only focuses on me because I am the enemy, will it be able to correct the mistakes of Ricardo, Cuaitl, Akapochtli? Of course he will not do it because the person to attack is for me, and with that same argument to block me, it is the same rigor with which he assaults me. A person who is not a native speaker such as Tepoxteco, will never defend native speakers, of course who will protect the poor articles of the mestizos Ricardo, Cuaitl, Akapochtli , Akapochtli was Nahuatl student as me, no Nahuatl native speaker.

Liuxinyu do not let yourself be easily fooled, the fact that it has been sysop there is no guarantee that it does its job well in Huiquipedia or that it is really worried about the Nahua leguas, but when despising native speakers like Tepoxteco or Teotlalilli there is also no security for a speaker native want to edit, they are not the Akapochtli's students. Akapochtli and all mestizos must be under the orders of Tepoxteco as Teotlalilli because they are true native speakers of Nahuatl languages.

Moreover, I challenge him. Marrovi , please, show us a single invented word in the text of Atl cahualo , Patolli , Acamapichtli or Tonalpohualli. Obviously Marrovi didn't write these. These articles are written in central Nahuatl and are perfectly understandable by its speakers, there is no kind of "jumble". Marrovi : I challenge you , please, show us what mistakes they have, if you are able to do it.

Are you realy? I'm a teacher in my university, I havent'n time in this momment, but many words are inventeds by us without Tepoxteco. Yes of course, if you want corrections, I have got many books in Nahuatl languages. I'm afraid I can't leave behind without clarifying his long wall-texts, this is the reason why I didn't want to partake here, his speeches that force us to quit the subject again and again and form a long chain of smaller matters which in turn have no end.

Marrovi's speech forces me to respond, it is necessary to show his incomprehension and that he is wrong about me. No Marrovi, I'm not here to cheat anyone, please show us a single diff where I say without a doubt a lie; I come to set a solid starting point, my comments seek to show the deepest reasoning and not just follow a bad trend. Yes Marrovi, I wasn't born speaking Nahuatl, nevertheless my first words in this language I pronounced them in , six years before you were born. I lived in the community of Zitlala, Guerrero, where I learned to speak Nahuatl and I used it daily because I was a Community Instructor there between and , when you were just two years old and you were not even going to kindergarden I already spoke it.

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So when you had not even finished Primary school I already spoke in three variants; for this reason it is absurd for me that you go around spreading that according to you, I am following your steps, when I had already participated in countless activities and I had even worked in communities; Before the year , together with other scholars, we had already pondered on the situation and the future of the Nahuatl languages, we proposed different scenarios and we calculated results, it is necessary to tell you that our forecastings have been quite accurate.

And all this long before any statement of yours. Yes Marrovi, it isn't my maternal language but I am a Nahuatl speaker and I do it properly, in fact I have even spoken with Tepoxteco a couple of times and I have recordings of evidence. I don't looking for new native friends on Facebook, they want to be my friends when they see my writings and comments, they like how I write nahuatl and I talk with them in their own language.

No Marrovi, I'm not a student like you, please don't try yourself compare with me, I don't hide myself behind of native speakers, I've learned enough to understand for myself and in very specific cases like this I know that you with your photos and presumptions you intend to place yourself above us, photos and diplomas say us where you was not what you know, you feel as untouchable and unbreakable person, despite you're suffered in recent years one drubbing after another.

No Marrovi, I don't look down on other native speakers, nor do I despise other users like you do when talking about those who currently participate in Huiquipedia.

Instituto Nacional de Lenguas Indígenas (Mexico)

No Marrovi, I don't defend the Huiquipedia or the users. It is true, it is necessary to correct many things but let me tell you something, there we will follow the advice of true native speakers without political pretensions who are helping with creative ideas, they are around 20 people and form a Council who endorse the changes under way, noway we will follow the ridiculous indications of a pretentious like you.

No Marrovi, I've never stopped Tepoxteco or Teotlalili, they have the open doors of Huiquipedia, actually and currently I don't have any problems with them; I just understand, you're facing us each other, you're a Troll, you put words in my mouth and you incite them, then you come here and you write that they are annoyed with me, You are the one who says everything!

And trust me, they will sooner or later notice that you are using them for your benefit, you really abuse them and you don't stop using them as a shield and pretext. Steven, Liuxinyu and Maor, I will write some sub-pages with explanations about why we must close the testing of Central Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl, moreover I will do another for support three variants. Template:Engflag I apologize for writing this in English, but I wish my reasoning to be clear. I take this step reluctantly. But I am going to propose that Marrovi be banned from Vikipedya.

That ban would be enforced by an indefinite block, and can be appealed after one year. I have long given Marrovi the benefit of the doubt. I think he is an honorable person. I think he has tried hard to learn Judeo-Spanish, and to contribute here to the best of his ability. He has not violated the limitation we placed on him as to how frequently he can create new pages. And as he claims crypto-Jewish ancestry, at a certain point this should be a community that is open to him and that welcomes him. Still, at the end of the day, if I had to summarize the problem with Marrovi briefly, it would be that.

Marrovi is simply too high-maintenance for us here. It takes too much work to keep his contributions acceptable. And we do not have sufficient editor resources to do that work properly. Marrovi just avoided a global ban on substantially these grounds a little over a year ago. At that, the global ban was avoided because individual wikis were handling things locally, usually by individual blocks or bans. We have recently had discussions on the Wikimedia Incubator about Marrovi's contributions to Nahuatl-language test projects.

And it has become clear to me that at the end of the day, there is still something Marrovi doesn't understand about contributing here on Wikimedia projects like Vikipedya or Incubator:. It is this, more than anything else, that leads me to this proposal. I think the poor quality of much of Vikipedya—we have over 2, stubs—has made prospective contributors reluctant to come here. And while Marrovi has contributed some good material, much more of the material is poor, or consists only of stubs.

On the whole, I think he has been a negative to the project. I think it is time that Vikipedya moves on, cleans up, and tries to bring some new contributors in to improve the project. I would add one other point. If we had a larger community here already—one where there were sufficient contributors fluent in Judeo-Spanish to keep an eye on Marrovi's contributions—I could justify continuing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

If, in one year, or three, or five, we have that type of larger contributor community, we can consider whether or not it is reasonable to lift this ban. But until and unless that happens, I don't think we can afford him here any more. Template:Espflag Una disculpa a todos por escribir en castellano, soy mexicano y mi lengua materna es esta. Ni modo Sr. What's the propose of this talk page of a closed RFC? I'm afraid this case is too new for me to judge, that a user copied a lot of large threads from other wikis to this one talk page but no originale propositum.

Primero de todo. Alguien que dice que dice que no soy un nativo, sin aportar ninguna prueba de ello. Hasta la noche de los tiempos. Tengo mi acta de nacimiento, mi pasaporte, mi cartilla militar, mi tarjeta electoral, el CURP A los que no se les puede juzgar en su dominio de la lengua porque nada escriben.

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  • Y se sienten con mayor derecho a escribir en esta lengua. Gente que desprecia al resto de los mexicanos y que valoran la mexicanidad como algo que no quieren compartir. Es un trabajo que he ido mejorando y que estoy preocurando documentar. Lo voy mejorando poco a poco. Todo el mundo puede acudir a los diccionarios existentes de Simeon, de Alonso de Molina Yo he pensado que son parte de la cultura universal. Barrioflores talk , 8 February UTC. From Meta, a Wikimedia project coordination wiki. Archivo:Flag of Tlaxcala. Archivo:Flag of Tamaulipas. Archivo:Flag of Quintana Roo.

    Archivo:Flag of Mexico state. Archivo:Flag of Chihuahua City. Archivo:Municipal flag of Guadalajara. Archivo:Bandera de Morelia. Archivo:Bandera de Puebla de Zaragoza. Archivo:Flag of Toluca, Mexico. Archivo:Bandera de Tamazula de Gordiano. Archivo:Bandera de Tequixquiac. Archivo:Bandera de Tonaya. Archivo:Bandera de Zapopan. Archivo:Bandera de Monterrey. Archivo:Bandera municipal de Colima. Archivo:Bandera Nacional de Guerra de Mexico en Archivo:Bandera de Nueva Galicia. Archivo:Flag of Mexico , Archivo:Flag of Coahuila y Tejas. Advances in Economic Botany, 7: Tzotzil Maya Ethnoecology: Landscape perception and management as a basis for coffee agroforest design.

    Journal of Ethnobiology , 22 2 : Ethnopedology: a worldwide view on the soil knowledge of local people. Geoderma , Journal of Ethnobiology , 17 1 : Speculations on the growth of ethnobotanical nomenclature. Language in society , 1: The concept of rank in ethnobiological classification: Some evidence from Aguaruna folk botany. American Ethnologist , 3: Ethnobiological Classification: Principles of categorization of plants and animals in traditional societies.

    Princeton University Press, New Jersey. Journal of Ethnobiology , 1: General principles of classification and nomenclature in folk biology. American Anthropologist , The use of plot surveys for the study of ethnobotanical knowledge: A Brunei Dusum example. Integrating indigenous knowledge and soil science to develop a national soil classification system for Nigeria. Agriculture and Human Values , Mode of subsistence and folk biological taxonomy. Current Anthropology , 26 1 : The knowledge and use of rainforest trees by the Kuikuru Indians of central Brazil.

    Anthropological Papers , Serie Escuela y Amazonia No 5. Interciencia , 27 11 : Interciencia , 27 12 : The Mossi indigenous soil classification in Burkina Faso. Indigenous Knowledge and Development Monitor , 1 3 : In : Duivenvoorden, J. Serie: Estudios en la Amazonia colombina, Vol. Programa Tropenbos Colombia, Bogota. Different floristic patterns of woody understory and canopy plants in Colombian Amazonia. Journal of Tropical Ecology , 18 4 : In: Duivenvoorden, J. Candollea , Alma Mater , 6: Indigenous soil classification.

    What is their structure and function, and how they compare to scientific soil classification? Guide lines for soil profile description. FAO, Rome. Matses Indian rainforest habitat classification and mammalian diversity in Amazonian Peru.

    Los hablantes de lenguas indígenas de México: el caso de Oaxaca

    Journal of Ethnobiology , 20 1 : The perception of ecological zones and natural resources in the Brazilian Amazon: An ethnoecology of lake Coari. Advances in Economic Botany , 7: Economic Botany , 40 2 : Soil suitability classification by farmers in southern Rwanda. Geoderma , 75 1 : Ndumba folk biology and general principles of ethnobotanical classification and nomenclature. Forest environments in tropical life zones, a pilot study. Pergamon, Oxford. Tzeltal folk zoology: The classification of discontinuities in nature. Academic Press, New York.

    The utilitarian factor in folk biological classification. Human Ecology , 28 2 : Das geographische System der klimate. Handbuch der klimatologie , Teil IC. The plant book: a portable dictionary of the higher plants. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. Ethnobotany: A conservation manual. Chapman and Hall, London. Indigenous soil classifications: complications and considerations. Indigenous Knowledge and Development Monitor , 3 1 : Moving beyond indigenous soil taxonomies: local theories of soil for sustainable development.

    Methods and issues in exploring local knowledge of soils. Revised standard soil color charts. Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, Japan. Resource exploitation in Amazonia: Ethnoecological examples from four populations.